A Case Against Christians in Combat

Three hours was just a start :-P

I kid. That discussion we had over spring break was good but it pretty much just addressed personal violence, not the violence of nations or how Christians are involved. We touched on it, but I left unsatisfied.

I've heard many times from Christian teachers that it's wrong for one to commit murder, but when two countries are at war, all bets are off.

That's a load of crap. Wounds are wounds, murders are murders, rapes are rapes, a heart filled with anger and hate is a heart filled with anger and hate whether you're in a war or not.

Perhaps that's why I'm being so rebelious and want to talk about this so much. I think there's alot of false ideas about war going around in Christian circles and no one seems to be stepping up to challenge them anymore.

Lest you think that I'm not personally invested in this, I just want to say that both of my grandfathers were in WW2 and my dad was a cop all his life. The conclusions that we reach here have impact in my life. Just throwing that out there. Now on to the discussion.

First of all, you both make a good point that God gives us a fire to fight for what we ought. However, like Nitish said, your feelings of what God's calling you to do need to be tempered with a more objective source of God's revelation. That's why we're having this discussion. To find out if our feelings are right. I know I certainly have the desire to make my country strong. But I don't know if that's a right desire.

Transition...

What I'm about to say does not necessarily reflect what I actually believe.

These are some of the arguments I'm wrestling with, though.

1. Our home is not this world.

The fact is that all countries are of "the world." There is no country, not Israel, not America, not no one, that is not "the world."

Hebrews 11.13-16
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Why should a Christian, who is supposed to fix their sight on this better country and acknowledge that they are an alien and a stranger in the world (1 Peter 2.11), engage themselves in the conflicts of the world? Why should a citizen of the heavenly country, whose interests lie elsewhere, bind up their life course...and indeed their life...with the interests of a worldly country? Why should a Christian die for the sake of the world's petty interests?

Don't the countries of this world just fight to increase their own power?

How can a Christian involve themselves in such a conflict? We are not about gaining power for ourselves to our gain.

A Christian should then fight only for the sake of the country to which they are allied with...God's country if you will...yes, I mean Texas.

Seriously, though, we've gotten to the point where most people don't even think about who they're allying themselves with. So often it's seen as God and country rather than God or country, which appears to be a more biblical perspective on the issue. Let's employ a little bit of the principle behind the separation of the Church and state here. Let's let the Church influence the state and not let the Church get bound up in the affairs of state. The Church will crumble if it does.

2. Isn't there a better way?

As Christians, we should be constantly looking for God's way of doing things in this world...and acting that way. So the question is, is war God's way of settling conflicts at this point in time?

Deuteronomy 20.10
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.

We see in Deuteronomy 20.10 that God's way of dealing with people is, ideally, peaceful. More convicting is

2 Corinthians 10.3-5
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

So the Bible talks about fighting and using weapons, but not the weapons of this world. Wouldn't this mean that, as Christians, we are called to not take up arms to settle national conflicts? Shouldn't we fight instead with spiritual weapons of service, wisdom, etc. ...the knowledge of God?

I think that's a beautiful idea. A noble, inspiring idea.

You don't hear stories of the Apostles taking up arms to fight for or against Rome or any other country for that matter.

A related idea is what you said about the discipline, honor, brotherhood, trust and obedience found in the military. It seems to me that we should see those qualities in the Church. Why should we have to take up the weapons of this world to experience them? And I believe that in the Church they'd be found in a better form...one that allows for much more creativity and thought than in a military. That's one of the huge things that bothers me about the military: their training is so much about near-brainwashing. I don't think that's a good idea. Man is not a machine and should not be trained to be little more than one. That's not what God wants of us.

3. Do Christians really need to act all the time?

1 Corinthians 5.12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?

Do we really need to act when God's moral law is challenged? When a non-Christian man buys a prostitute is it our duty to do something? When one country attacks another, is a Christian required to step into the conflict? If so, then we are failing radically in our mission.

4. Christians in war - the Crusades

We still haven't been forgiven for the Crusades, a war that Christians got involved in for wrong reasons.

A bad idea.



Again, these views aren't meant to be a personal attack and they don't necessarily represent what I believe. I hope no one feels personally attacked by them...but I do hope they will provoke personal reflection and, if need be, change.

What do you think?

Christians Must Act

After our 3 hour group conversation about war on Tuesday night, Matt, I'm surprised you would make a post on it. My brain is pretty much spent on the matter. However, I do know when God's moral law is challenged, we as Christians must act. Whether it is segregation and we respond in nonviolence or the genocide of millions and we respond in force, there surely is a time and a place for Christian to act.

I do appreciate your post Nitish. Specifically:

"He will give us a fire for a reason. Something that we must believe in strongly, and that we would want to fight for it."

In the future - situations will arise, events will occur, decisions will be made, words will be spoken, actions will be taken and we as followers of Christ we will have to decide how to respond in a God pleasing manner. I pray the Spirit will give us the wisdom and courage for when such circumstances arise to stand up when we need to stand up, and to fight for what needs to be fought for.

Interestingly enough, when I got home today I found a package from my Oma (German for Grandmother). In it was a book titled "Kingdoms in Conflict" by Charles Colson. One question tackled (Matt, I know you have asked something similar in the past) is "Do ministers have any business running for political office?". What stands out to me the most was something my Oma writes in the letter that accompanied the book. She states "This book gives a concise outline, if you will, of the Church's role in politics and war, historically". It should be an interesting read.

- UPDATE 4/1/07 -

My brother hooked me up with a book (He's a manager of a Parable Books store) I spotted a few weeks ago on Bonhoeffer, "Bonhoeffer Speaks Today" by Mark Devine. Any highly regarded Christian theologian who wrote a book called "Ethics" and was later imprisoned and hung for being actively involved in an assination plot surely must provide a relevant perspective on the topic.

Going To War

I searched in my study bible about the topic of war. Only one place talks about it, and only specifically it. Deuteronomy 20: Going To War.

But while this is the passage about war, it does not say anything about why to go to war. It says to only faithful that God will deliver you. It says to have faith, and it also explains about how to treat your opposition, before and after they have been defeated.

But. Nothing on why.

When I was in a Christian private school when I lived in California, my English teacher always told me: "You know what it is that God wants you to do, you know what your calling is, because thats the fire the God sets in your heart. He will set the fire in your heart for what he wants you to do, so that you will aim for it, and want to do it."

I believe that. I think that if God wants us to go to war, it's a fire He will give us by the spirit. And I don't mean blood lust. I don't mean He will give us the urge to just go out there and start shooting. I mean, He will give us a fire for reason. Something that we must believe in strongly, and that we would want to fight for it. And so the fire goes in our hearts, and thus we want to fight. Hence comes in the Deuteronomy. He helps us to stay confident in the midst of battle.

This is only my opinion.

I believe it strongly.

I have always been infatuated with the military. I love it. The discipline, the honor, the obedience, the trust, the brotherhood. I do plan to join, after my studies are complete, in hopes to use my skills in the military. I know this is something I want to do for a fact, because I have a fire for it, and can't see myself doing anything else really. Everything happens for a reason, and that if this is what I'm set on doing, it must be my calling. Of course common sense has a large part to play in this as well. I mean if I had a strong feeling to kill someone in revenge, surely that isn't God talking to me.

-Aquila

War and Peace

If you guys will stomach it, I'm gonna change the subject.

Here's my question:

When is it right for a Christian to fight in a war?

matt

Post on xxxchurch

Hey guys and anyone else who reads this,

I just posted something on one of the blogs on xxxchurch.com...it took like 3 hours to write so it's no minor comment. It's in reply to someone else's comments on the porn industry.

Just go to http://xxxchurch.com/07/blog_post.php?b=theindustry&p=8#comments

...hopefully the post shows up soon. It didn't pop up immediately so I think they might be screening it.

It relates to our current conversation because what I say there has everything to do with our union with Christ.

Your thoughts about the post?

Matt

PS more on the topic of union later...I need to recover from the xxxchurch blog post.

Love God

It really is so very romantic...

He's more than in us. It's not some weird "alien" type thing...it's not even a human baby in the womb type thing. It's even deeper than that. I know that's not how you think of the Spirit in us, but I guess that's how I've thought of it in the past. Sorry for projecting, just roll with it please.

My point is, it's so much more than the Holy Spirit...the Spirit of Christ...in us, separate from us...

Through the Spirit, Christ is united with us and we with him.

I am my beloved's and he is mine.

The Song of Songs may be talking about love, sex and marriage first and foremost, but our relationships are a beautiful image for us and Jesus. To back up your point about the Spirit while still driving towards unity in love, Christ has poured out his intense, passionate love for us through the Spirit whom he has given us (Romans 5.5)

Check out Ephesians 5.25-33

Sorry about being a jerk in my first post. It was a worthwhile question, for sure. And I responded foolishly.

Matt

Trinity Tongue Twisters

Your final interpretation is indeed what I was getting at. I have already expressed my frustration in my poorly formed question, but I think it turned out to be a better question then I originally thought after your response. It sparked a pretty interesting post on your part. You had a lot of really good thoughts to share on world views.

Thought, one thing didn't sit quite right with me.

You say, "Christ is in us". We throw stuff around like that all the time, and it sounds so very romantic. But, Christ is indeed in Heaven, no? His work on earth was finished. He now sits at the right hand of our Father acting as our interceder (Romans 8:34).

I believe you are speaking of the Spirits role in each of our lives. And now, the picture of believers as having the aroma of Christ becomes so much clearer. Through the Spirit working in our lives (at the deepest level) we are able to, called to, drawn to become Christ-like, emitting from the inside out the very essence of who Christ is.

And yes, they are both in and of the same God. However, I still believe their is much worth in understanding, and in turn, properly communicating the role and our interaction with each of the 3 persons of the Trinity.

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?... All are welcome!

We Are

It's a bad question.

Here's why I think so.

First of all, what do you mean by Christianity? What exactly is the Christian worldview? (I'll qualify here that we are dealing here with Christianity as a worldview, nothing more...and it is so much more).

Different people can have different worldviews that I would consider equally Christian.

For instance...a Calvinist vs. an Arminian. Both people, I would say, have Christian worldviews. Both are equally convinced their view is right. And yet when they see someone saved, they see what happened differently. Did the person who was saved have a choice in the matter?

So what defines the Christian worldview?

This is a pretty key issue because we're constantly told that we ought to have a "Christian worldview." Unfortunately, the "Christian worldview" presented often has more to do with politics than the actual teaching of the Word.

One more thing with the question.

If my particular worldview (we'll say I'm Buddhist in this example) can explain what I see around me as far as I can honestly tell, then it does in fact explain the reality of the world around me. That seems a little repetative but think about it. My worldview may not be how things actually are, but that doesn't matter as long as it explains the world for me. It's a personal truth.

In fact, any worldview that I honestly hold to does in fact explain the world around me.

Long story short, I'm not sure where you're going with the question anymore (I thought I was before today).

Now if the question was...

Does the Bible, when it's correctly interpreted, tell us about the world as it actually is?

Then we can jump into a whole other world. The short answer is yes. And you guys bring up a good point about being the smell of death to those who are perishing and the smell of life to those who are being saved.

I would add, though, that we are not simply covered in Christ's scent. We are ONE with Christ. When people look at a believer they smell Christ Himself and NOT a superficial covering of Christ's scent. Christ is in us. He's there. Really. And He's working in us (not from a safe, holy distance but IN us at the deepest level) for our good to change us to be like Him more and more.

We are not alone.

Matt

Aroma of Christ

I am impressed with your answer to my (in retrospect) supremely vague and ugly question. Even reading the question now sends my mind on a wild journey with no clear end that could last for days if it wasn't for all the demands of life slapping me back into reality. Yet you tackled it excellently, and it only took you two months.

Your response makes me think of 2 Corinthians:

12Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, 13I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia. 14But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task? 17Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. (NIV)

I think this paints ones of the most beautiful pictures of our role in the spreading of Jesus message. For me, it sparks a sense of confidence, knowing the Spirit is doing the work and I am merely wearing the scent of Christ which draws people to Him. It takes the burden off of my shoulders to try and DO anything, and in turn, allows me to simply (I say simply with a bit of apprehension, being fully aware of the temptations of our nature that we fight day in and day out) live pursuing Jesus heart in my life.

Questioning The Bible...

I think it can go both ways. But thats also like asking if everything in the bible is really going to happen. We both know it is. But then we look around, and see this horrid planet we call Earth, and are almost instantly assured of it.

We look at everyone around us, and if Christianity did explain the truth, wouldn't more people want to believe ? The problem is, it's either sounds too good to be true, or it does not sound like the truth at all. Just a dream.

Truly, if it sounded more like something people wanted to hear, more people would want to believe.